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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:15, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bałwan

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Bałwan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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This is currently being discussed in the AfD equivalent of pl wiki (pl:Wikipedia:Poczekalnia/artykuły/2021:09:03:Bałwan (posąg)) where the growing consensus is that this is just a synonym of idol (in this context in English, cult image). In my WP:BEFORE I also couldn't find anything outside few mentions of this term as a Slavic term for 'idol'. As such, I'd suggest redirecting it there per WP:SOFTDELETE/WP:AFD, but just in case I missed some sources (maybe in Russian? I checked Polish, but I don' speak Russian), let's discuss it here first. I am not proposing a merge since the article is mostly unreferenced, and right now I doubt there is any reason to mention in "cult image" the Slavic word for this, doesn't seem more relevant than the translation of this term in any other language or language group. PS. Please note that the main ref used here, Gieysztor, is problematic. The editor who translated this used it as a footnotes for every paragraph, but the Polish article just had this as a general, non-footntoed reference/further reading. As such, it is possible that the footnotes to Gieysztor do not verify all the content that they claim to do so. PPS. My WP:BEFORE only found a short, 2-papge Lithuanian paper discussing the etymology of this word in Lithuanian: [1]; full text [2]. I tried Google Translating it but the result if mostly gibberish, but from what I can tell it does not contain any discussion of this concept in the context of archeology outside nothing that it is a synonym to "idol". Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mythology-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Archaeology-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kyrgyzstan-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belarus-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Sometimes everyday words in another language become terms of art in English-language archaeology, e.g. in Russian площадка is just an area or platform, but in English a ploshchadki is a very specific type of Neolithic floor construction. But I can't find any indication that this is the case here so, taking on good faith that plwiki has not found any good sources in Polish, this does seem like an overblown dictionary entry. – Joe (talk) 08:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Balwan is a specific type of idol with a specific form. It's not just a synonym. I added 2 book sources explaining the origin of this term. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 23:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This seems to list synonyms of idol in different languages. Your first source was added to reference this term as referring to a "log", that doesn't seem correct. The sentence in the text states "Besides the Boh. modla, idolum (fr. Model? or fr. modiliti, to pray?), we find balwan, block, log, idol, Pol. Balwan, Miklos balvan, Wall. balavanu, big stone...". That source does nothing to supporting the idea that this term is used for "a specific type of idol with a specific form". The second source, which states it it is a slavic term for idol "in form of the post", is a bit better, but it is still a single sentence that fais WP:SIGCOV. At best, all we have here is a sentence that "The Slavic term for an idol in form of a post is bałwan", referenced to the second source you found, that could be merged to the idol article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why doesn't it seem correct to you? More than 50% of page 1319 is describing ancient idols carved in stone and logs. It mentions variations of the term balwan, such as bal'van', balavanu and others. The same page describes that the balwan has the form of a pillar, column, log and so on. That's why I mentioned that balwan is not just another word for idol. All those statements contain references to other publications. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 04:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The sources you added (one by Jacob Grimm no less) discuss the philology of the word bałwan, and what it might tell us about Slavic mythology. They could be used to expand wikt:bałwan, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. – Joe (talk) 05:37, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of a dictionary is to provide the definitions and etymology. If a random user finds the word balwan in a book and wants to know what it means the dictionary may provide some limited knowledge. In this case the wiktionary is saying that balwan is a snowman, which is not the only meaning. Therefore, it can be misleading for the user. On the other hand, an encyclopedic article can explain the subject in much more detail, as long as it is not deleted. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 14:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - IF the topic is WP:NOTABLE. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to cite something I missed, but I didn't notice anything in ref 1 that states that the term "bałwan" means "idols carved in stone and logs". Also, that page cites a number of other words, such as Irish deilbh, why should we use bałwan if there are like give Irish words for this? Or why not use the balvan spelling, also available there? PS. I'll ping User:Sławobóg, whom I remember as being interested in old Slavic topics. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:45, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the spelling, that's exactly why we need philological sources to pick up the most appropriate English spelling. I don't think that Irish idols and Slavic idols are the same or even similar. Even the Polish bolwan is not exactly the same as the Russian variant. This is not my field of expertise. However, I suspect that calling a Slavic balwan a deilbh could be totally wrong. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 14:46, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that they don't. The first source does not say bałwan is the right term, it lists over a dozen related terms, all of which pretty much seem to be synonyms of "idol" and nothing more. We have an article on idol, we don't need separate pages for idol in Polish or Irish, that's what wiktionary is for. Redirects can be kept, and the rare reader who searcher for bałwan can be redirected to cult image, which should mention that Slavic idols are sometimes called bałwans (which means idol in Slavic language). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Totem poles in North America are not the same as the moai (stone mauls in the Easter Island). So, why Irish and Slavic idols have to be unified under the same name? They represent different ancient gods, they are located in different places, they were built from different materials and so on. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 14:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This makes perfect sense to me, but we are lacking reliable sources with in-depth coverage that a) discuss Slavic idols and b) say that they should be called bałwans. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added another one. It's an article published by the Institute of History of Ukraine. It's a study based on the The Tale of Igor's Campaign, one of the oldest and most renown Slavic writings. The whole article is about a stone balwan. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 16:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Of course it is, because this is the word used in Ukrainian. Or Polish. Or Russian. For "idol" (in the context of cult image). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let me cite your own words from the nomination. You said that the existing sources do not contain any discussion of this concept in the context of archeology outside nothing that it is a synonym to idol. The article in the Ruthenica journal does describe the term in the context of archeology. The author is saying that one of those bolwans had to be extremely important if it was included into that ancient Slavic writing as a reference. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 14:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And what I am saying is that that article, in Ukrainian/Russian, just using the word bałwan because it mans "cult image" in Ukrainian. You could just as well argue that we should have a separate article on pl:wieżowiec, a Polish word for skyscraper, because all sources found in Polish will use this word and not skyscraper. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I added English sources first. They prove that the subject is the correct term in English, not just the native language name like the skyscraper in Polish. Let me clarify as well that the article is written in Russian, not in Ukrainian. On the other hand, the epic poem was written in Old East Slavic, which is the common ancestor of Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 14:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And the English source(s) don't establish this word is used in English outside of minor etymology/linguistic discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you google for "Mansiysk Bolvans" you can find many articles in English describing one of the Seven Wonders of Russia. So, the term is widely used. For example, nobody calls the Colossus of Rhodes as a large statue of Rhodes or the Kremlin as a stronghold. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So Mansiysk Bolvans are likely notable, but that doesn't mean balvan/balwan is. Your examples prove it. We have articles about Colossus of Rhodes and Kremlin but Colossus and Stronghold are just disambigs/redirects. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now. We have articles like God, Jumala, Khuda or Bhagavan. Balvan (best Common Slavic form since Proto-Slavic form is *balъvanъ) as word and thing has its history that could be presented. I can do it, but not now. In the future if there is no enough content I will merge it into Slavic religion. Sławobóg (talk) 14:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, a lot of articles about Slavic religion contain nonsense or no footnotes, but it's impossible to fix it all at once. Maybe give me a few days, because I just started expanding another article? Sławobóg (talk) 17:58, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be totally fine with this being draftified in your userspace. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 19:25, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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